Falcon Clock Patch V5 series

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exxos
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Falcon Clock Patch V5 series

Post by exxos »

I have designed another experimental clock patch. Though I doubt anyone realistically would have any needs for this series. It is more experimental for my own machine for various reasons. Mostly as pointed out in the V4 thread.

FALCON_CLOCK_PATCH_V5.PNG
FALCON_CLOCK_PATCH_V5.PNG (72.36 KiB) Viewed 856 times

Overall problem with the clock patches, is that there are so many different designs, it's difficult to figure out why what was done for what reason.

If we stick with the Atari fixes, they seem to go from noninverting (AND) to inverting, back to noninverting according to https://mikrosk.github.io/clockpatch/

Czuba (creator of the CT60) advocates no clock patch whatsoever, which insinuates signals must be in phase.

The majority of clock patches seems to be based on the popular one of using the inverter 74F04 which then branch off into various bus accelerator designs. It is a contradiction to what Czuba is advocating for the CT60. But I personally have never found any issues yet of using a inverter or buffer style clock patch with the CT60.

If we assume "Variant 1.3" is the "best" baseline version by Atari. It illustrates that EXP & SDMA clock is linked and is insinuating that they be as close in sync as possible. This is not so simple because there is a inherent 4ns delay to the SDMA because of trace impedances etc. So the SDMA will always lag behind any other clock by 4ns. This is also aggravated by the addition of the 150pf caps on some bus accelerators and using inverters which skew 180deg anyway.

On Variant 1.1 @mikro states..
DoIt F030 claims this schematic is broken and warns the reader that this discrepancy between the CPU clock and others would result in non-working Falcon, “surely with a 060 CPU”. There’s a proposed change to use AND gates for all three signals.
I don't know if this was ever verified in any way ?

If there was any truth to this, then it would advocate again, that all the signals must be perfectly in phase. Though I have never witnessed any problems with my CT60e relating to any use of any of my clock patches yet. It is possible that information is old and no longer relevant with current CT60 builds ?

I'm going to completely ignore all the versions relating to bus accelerators, in particular any clock patches using inverters as I cannot really see any reason to use inverters other than Atari seriously screwed up something design of the Falcon, though I have not yet seen any evidence to advocate using inverters over buffers in general use yet. My only thought currently is that maybe the inverters at the time had higher output currents and the general buffers were not as good at the time. Though I have not really looked into the hypothesis much either.

The overall summary of all the above assumptions and information, results in version V5.1 clock patch by myself. This time it uses a PLL to sync the clocks to the combel clock precisely. The problem here is that, again, there is a inherent 4ns delay to the SDMA clock. So the V5.1 advances the clock to the SDMA, so after the transmission delay, the SDMA clock precisely in sync with the CPU/EXP clocks. This is presumably what Atari was aiming for the timings of the chipset. This way it keeps the timing as insinuated by Czuba with the CT60, and it also buffers the clocks to solve the SDMA related issues. The best of both worlds so to speak.

So I will make the bottom line assumption ,that Atari when they designed the Falcon, that the intention was to have all the clocks in sync. It failed because of the bad clock drive to the SDMA which resulted in various issues and added a small delay, likely adding additional issues . Possibly then, because of the inherent 4ns delay on the SDMA clock, buffering added more delay and screwed up enough to break the SDMA timing totally. So then the only option would be to use inverters..

I certainly cannot say this will be any better or worse than my V3/V4 designs as I have never seen any issues personally relating to EXP/CPU/SDMA clock timings. The general notion of the clock patches is to buffer the SDMA clock to prevent issues. Though why Atari kept seemingly changing the design all the time, remains somewhat of a mystery. Though again, the V5 goes in a different direction totally in using a PLL which no other design has tried yet. So if we have all the clocks in phase, and bufferd, that *should* be the best .....................
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Re: Falcon Clock Patch V5 series

Post by nemox »

I'm very curious about further progress, I have a Phantom Clock patch in my falcons and the SCSI is not completely clean, I have a CT60E and a CT60. I ran the CT60 with acceleration from the CT60 board. Then I "upgraded* to phantom acceleration and the SCSI error is the same...
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Re: Falcon Clock Patch V5 series

Post by jwd »

Thanks for not giving up on this, I went from official Atari patch to phantom patch (story posted elsewhere) and the acid test was the Joy Demo.

As stated then the clocks were much cleaned up but not perfect although within tolerance, I didn't measure the syncing of all the clocks but if/when I do get a CT60/clone then its good to know there is another more comprehensive clock patch available if any problems arise and i'm sure a more comprehensive clock patch will fix the really odd Falcons that no current patch seems to fix and their users seem to going round in circles and off on tangents trying to solve.

:cheers:
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Re: Falcon Clock Patch V5 series

Post by exxos »

jwd wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 10:51 am ..... if any problems arise and i'm sure a more comprehensive clock patch will fix the really odd Falcons that no current patch seems to fix and their users seem to going round in circles and off on tangents trying to solve.
That's the odd thing by itself, why do some Falcon seriously not like the CT60 and ones like mine simply don't care at all...

Maybe someone could try contacting Mr Czuba and asking why he advocates no clock patch at all and the technical reasons why.. And why some falcons really don't care what clock patch they have...
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Re: Falcon Clock Patch V5 series

Post by exxos »

nemox wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2024 9:07 pm I'm very curious about further progress, I have a Phantom Clock patch in my falcons and the SCSI is not completely clean, I have a CT60E and a CT60. I ran the CT60 with acceleration from the CT60 board. Then I "upgraded* to phantom acceleration and the SCSI error is the same...
Have you tried out any generations of my other clock patches ?

Also I had CT60 issues with some odd resistor on my board which caused no end of problems.. See right at the bottom of this page...

https://exxosforum.co.uk/atari/last/CT60/index.htm
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Re: Falcon Clock Patch V5 series

Post by viking272 »

exxos wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 11:04 am
jwd wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 10:51 am ..... if any problems arise and i'm sure a more comprehensive clock patch will fix the really odd Falcons that no current patch seems to fix and their users seem to going round in circles and off on tangents trying to solve.
That's the odd thing by itself, why do some Falcon seriously not like the CT60 and ones like mine simply don't care at all...

Maybe someone could try contacting Mr Czuba and asking why he advocates no clock patch at all and the technical reasons why.. And why some falcons really don't care what clock patch they have...
I think he's been retired the last 4-5 years and hasn't had any dealings with Falcon development since, but happy to be corrected!
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Re: Falcon Clock Patch V5 series

Post by exxos »

viking272 wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 5:48 pm I think he's been retired the last 4-5 years and hasn't had any dealings with Falcon development since, but happy to be corrected!
I think he quit a long time ago.. but he may still remember some technical stuff. I'm.not asking as things seem to always end in an argument.
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Re: Falcon Clock Patch V5 series

Post by nemox »

Resistor I try to install, 1k? I haven't tried another clock path yet, I'm still waiting for the best one:-) Which version will be the best V4 for testing? Thanks
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Re: Falcon Clock Patch V5 series

Post by mikro »

Maybe I have an interesting test case for your V5. As mentioned in the V4 thread (viewtopic.php?p=117521#p117521), I have a Falcon which refuses to work reliably with CT63 r2022. Today I finally got my original CT63 (by R. Czuba) so I could do further tests:

- the issue is still the same, Falcon freezes on any Blitter access (Atari boot logo, XBoot, opening a Desktop menu, ...) but only in 060 mode
- for a while I thought that installing the V2 clockpatch fixed the problem (previously there was no clockpatch) but it didn't last long (to this day I have no clue how could such behaviour change overnight...)
- as stated in the post, if I put my original CT60 into this Falcon: no issue
- if I put my original CT63 into this Falcon: no issue
- if I put the CT63 r2022 into another Falcon: no issue

With this original CT63 I went as far as putting the CPU and memory from the "bad CT63" into it, still working. So clearly, there is something odd on this particular Falcon's motherboard.

Good news is that I've got an oscilloscope in the meantime so I can measure the differences but this can gets quite interesting as there is basically no SDMA involved. And another thing is that I haven't learned how to operate it yet so Falcon certainly wont be my first patient. ;-) And yet another thing is that I could just starting using the original CT63 and have this CT63 r2022 as backup (as it works in other Falcons). But would be a nice investigation project for upcoming prolonged evenings...
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Re: Falcon Clock Patch V5 series

Post by Steve »

When you do start taking measurements @mikro make sure to put the probes ground as close to the signal you're measuring as possible. It'll make a night and day difference to the measurement quality. Ie; if you're measuring the signal coming out of a certain IC, attach the probes ground to the IC's ground. Etc etc.

You can get away with just attaching to any random ground for basic stuff like 5v power or whatever, but for transient signals which can easily be effected by noise, localise the ground as much as possible.
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