Greetings from Germany

[IngoQ]

Hiya

My Inbox told me, that finally exxos gave in and opened up his own forum, so here I am

I really like the motto, keeping things positive. My expectations here would be a place to exchange ideas instead of arguing about them, making suggestions instead of telling others what to do, and in general trying to not be an asshole I want to enjoy my hobby, share knowledge and try to have a good time doing so

I have a small computer collection, consisting of a C64, Atari 800XL, Texas Instruments TI99/4A, Amiga 1200 and of course one Atari 1040STE. My focus in general is on Homecomputers and their use cases, I'm not much of a gamer, although I enjoy my side scrolling shooter like the next guy But I am not interested in consoles, although the line sometimes tend to blur

Although I work in IT Management now, my background is electronics. I used to repair copiers, faxes and printers. I'm quite proficient on fixing things, but I never designed my own circuits. I have some programming experience on the X86-platform and modern scripting languages, like PERL, PHP, VB(A) as well as SQL. I know my way around Linux and Windows and use them on a daily basis.

Currently I am head of IT in the Studentenwerk OstNiedersachsen, which supplies services for students (dormitories, student cafeterias, financial aid, etc.) in conjunction with universities. At work my focus is on networking, i.e. layer 2 and 3 infrastructures for students and colleagues as well. In addition I do software development for internal applications and lots of project management

I (virtually) "met" exxos on the atari-forum a couple of months ago, and after reading some posts got the strong feeling of frustration. I read some discussions, started some of my own and tried to be positive and productive. What frustrated me, was how fast the tone in discussions changed and grown man started to fight like kids over toys. As if being right was more important than having fun. This remembered me of my time in our local computer club 30 years ago, where we would fight about which computer was the best. Only that we at this time did not really take it seriously. In the meantime I have learned the hard way, what motivates people and what kills motivation. And constant criticism, negative feedback, general ungratefulness, lack of respect and lack of recognition will kill motivation very quickly. I repeatedly said, if you don't do it for the money, you do it for recognition, and I stand by that statement. Obviously Exxos does not do it for money, and this is the place to offer recognition

I really like Exxos website, and gained much knowledge out of it, so for me it is a matter of honor to support him and try to give back to the community. I recently watched a youtube video from a watchcollector named TGV. He said, a true gentleman will never publicly argue with another man, and I found that very appealing, and try this as a basis to carry on things. Although I know that a forum is a place to discuss, there is a difference between discussing and arguing (at least in german there is ). For me discussing is about facts and I like a scientific approach. If you state facts you should have proof, if it's your own, or a source, if it is someone elses work. Arguing is about being right.

Oh and yes, I tend to write (and talk) to much That's why I stop now

[exxos]

Hiya
My Inbox told me, that finally exxos gave in and opened up his own forum, so here I am

Greetings, thanks for joining

I really like the motto, keeping things positive. My expectations here would be a place to exchange ideas instead of arguing about them, making suggestions instead of telling others what to do, and in general trying to not be an asshole I want to enjoy my hobby, share knowledge and try to have a good time doing so

Exactly! To much of "why things wont work" instead of helping solve the problems kinda thing with people.

I have a small computer collection, consisting of a C64, Atari 800XL, Texas Instruments TI99/4A, Amiga 1200 and of course one Atari 1040STE. My focus in general is on Homecomputers and their use cases, I'm not much of a gamer, although I enjoy my side scrolling shooter like the next guy But I am not interested in consoles, although the line sometimes tend to blur

I started out with a 2600, loved that thing

I (virtually) "met" exxos on the atari-forum a couple of months ago, and after reading some posts got the strong feeling of frustration. I read some discussions, started some of my own and tried to be positive and productive. What frustrated me, was how fast the tone in discussions changed and grown man started to fight like kids over toys.

Yeah, a lot of discussions go that way. Though it was time to give up when the so called experts are closed minded to new problems or ideas. I find faults all the time on the machines, people make me feel like I am making the whole thing up for some reason. Its not my problem they cannot accept my findings and solutions. When such people are even closed to the "idea" and shot it down from the start, its just time to move on, and that is what I did. I'm not going to discuss things for 100+ posts trying to convince people of things they do not want to be convinced about. They will always pick fault, and as this is new research, I cannot answer every question anyway.

As if being right was more important than having fun.

Exactly. It's never "Thanks exxos for bringing this problem to everyone's attention" its just more like "thats a load of rubbish blah blah".. That isn't a discussion is just being an ass. Then people will try and educate me on my own work or try and disprove it. Whats the point ?

This remembered me of my time in our local computer club 30 years ago, where we would fight about which computer was the best. Only that we at this time did not really take it seriously. In the meantime I have learned the hard way, what motivates people and what kills motivation.

A guy I went to school with and a Amiga 500 then 1200 I think. Another had a Spectrum, Another had a C64. We never fought about anything. I just used to go around their houses and play games with them all.

And constant criticism, negative feedback, general ungratefulness, lack of respect and lack of recognition will kill motivation very quickly. I repeatedly said, if you don't do it for the money, you do it for recognition, and I stand by that statement. Obviously Exxos does not do it for money, and this is the place to offer recognition

I mostly do this stuff as I want to create cool new things. It takes up pretty much all my time and funds, so my webstore helps to keep things sane. I've lost £2,000 easily this past year on Atari stuff.

Don't get me wrong, I have had a lot of sales from people from my store. They keep my work progressing. If it wasn't for people buying from my store, I wouldn't be able to afford to do all the projects I do.

Recognition is nice, though not so sure about that for me personally. I just want to create cool stuff and want others to enjoy the things I do. Real computing involves soldering, not just "plug and play" with modern tech. If my products give someone some enjoyment as well, then that is great. Everyone is happy.

I really like Exxos website, and gained much knowledge out of it, so for me it is a matter of honor to support him and try to give back to the community.

Awesome

I recently watched a youtube video from a watchcollector named TGV. He said, a true gentleman will never publicly argue with another man, and I found that very appealing, and try this as a basis to carry on things. Although I know that a forum is a place to discuss, there is a difference between discussing and arguing (at least in german there is ).

Such people say they are not arguing, they are discussing. Then normally say if I have a problem with it then im the one with the problem. Heard it all before.

For me discussing is about facts and I like a scientific approach. If you state facts you should have proof, if it's your own, or a source, if it is someone elses work. Arguing is about being right.

Exactly. I'm doing work in 2017, what people "know" is based on iffy information from 30+ years ago, where such people never done any research on it themselves then try and educate me on the subject or disagree based on what some guy in the pub said 50 years ago. Just no use "discussing" things with people who are stuck in the past. Ironic really

Oh and yes, I tend to write (and talk) to much That's why I stop now

Its fine, found your post a breath of fresh air

[IngoQ]

A guy I went to school with and a Amiga 500 then 1200 I think. Another had a Spectrum, Another had a C64. We never fought about anything. I just used to go around their houses and play games with them all.

We had XLs and STs, Amigas and C64s and even a Acorn Risc PC (really exotic here) . And of course we had debates about them, and would mock each other about shortcomings. But never seriously. We organized events where we would show off the diferent platforms and even had some projects that involved multiple systems, each with its own strength. For some reason I always liked the "underdog" position more. In our area this meant, liking Ataris when everybode else had Commodores. But I think I gained a lot from it, like making the best of limited resources and concentrating on strengths instead on weaknesses.

Recognition is nice, though not so sure about that for me personally. I just want to create cool stuff and want others to enjoy the things I do. Real computing involves soldering, not just "plug and play" with modern tech. If my products give someone some enjoyment as well, then that is great. Everyone is happy.

That's what I meant. Realizing cool projects is undoubtedly cool, but when you have nobody to tell and show what you build, it sucks. The fun will slowly fade and someday you wonder if it is worth the trouble at all. But when you have a community that takes interest, some to help you out, and some needing help, that's different. You are needed and recognized, you get feedback and new ideas and you feel driven forward. At least this is what I believe.

Such people say they are not arguing, they are discussing. Then normally say if I have a problem with it then im the one with the problem. Heard it all before.

Yep. For them to be right you need to be wrong first. And being right includes that it's always someone else's fault, never yours.

Exactly. I'm doing work in 2017, what people "know" is based on iffy information from 30+ years ago, where such people never done any research on it themselves then try and educate me on the subject or disagree based on what some guy in the pub said 50 years ago. Just no use "discussing" things with people who are stuck in the past. Ironic really

Although I never designed a circuit myself, even I know, that you don't leave logic in an indifferent state... one more discussion I did not understand...

[Maeke]

AS for me, the computers i found in class were Thomson MO5, MO6 and sometimes TO7, at least in middleschool, later i saw my first wintel things.
Why not ataris, amiga or c64 (or even asmtrad)? Because there was a contract between the government and Thomson which forced schools to use those computers you'll find only in france or italy (but branded olivetti).
This was tough, those were allready old since it was 8bits computers. And in the end, 90% of what we did on them was playing games, the profs didn't know what to use them for!


And my first ever own computer was.... a handed down (by my father) Thomson MO6 in pretty bad shape, my baby brother and sisters were a bit rough on it.

[exxos]

We had XLs and STs, Amigas and C64s and even a Acorn Risc PC (really exotic here) . And of course we had debates about them, and would mock each other about shortcomings. But never seriously. We organized events where we would show off the different platforms and even had some projects that involved multiple systems, each with its own strength. For some reason I always liked the "underdog" position more. In our area this meant, liking Ataris when everybody else had Commodores. But I think I gained a lot from it, like making the best of limited resources and concentrating on strengths instead on weaknesses.

Yeah people made fun a bit. Though for me anyway, it was more "I prefer this machine than Atari".. That about as far as it got. I liked all these machines, they could do cool stuff. At the end of the day, people had fun, that is all that matters.

Like you say, forums are just full of "this machine can't do this or that". Just 100's of pages of basically negative posts. I mean, really, who really cares anymore ?

The C64 has a amazing cool sound system for the time. I dare say better than the ST. But that is far as it goes for me. Every machine has its pros and cons. Focusing on what I machine hasn't got or can't do is just a waste of bandwidth. Unfortunately a lot of people have nothing better to do.

That's what I meant. Realizing cool projects is undoubtedly cool, but when you have nobody to tell and show what you build, it sucks. The fun will slowly fade and someday you wonder if it is worth the trouble at all. But when you have a community that takes interest, some to help you out, and some needing help, that's different. You are needed and recognized, you get feedback and new ideas and you feel driven forward. At least this is what I believe.

Yeah, ive got the next 50 years worth of projects lined up by people. Though I have to say "no" to a lot of projects simple because I can't do everything myself. Its great people want stuff and to improve their machines though.

Yep. For them to be right you need to be wrong first. And being right includes that it's always someone else's fault, never yours.

Well, for me, I don't say anything until I have done some work and proven to myself repeated times. So I know I am right in what I say, but when people just shot down or disbelieve what I say, just no point in say anything. It's another reason for a new forum. one that is based on facts and current work, not speculation and hearsay from 30 years ago.

Although I never designed a circuit myself, even I know, that you don't leave logic in an indifferent state... one more discussion I did not understand...

Sounds like the last topic I was involved in. When people don't understand even basic stuff, how to explain or have any sort of conversation on something more complex ?

I'm not a tutor of electronics, and don't have time to educate people on basic stuff. I also can't explain 20+ years of experience in fault finding on 100's of electronics items in a short easy to understand way which everyone can understand either. I do try sometimes, but then people just pick fault in what I say.. Well I have to do overall summary in order not to get to complicated. So yes, what I say may not be 100% accurate, but I'm not going to write a fully technical paper 100 pages long to explain every single details which nobody will understand anyway.

I will write what I believe is enough, if people want to research it themselves and study all about such things, they are free to do so. Though sadly a lot of people just pick fault or don't want to understand things anyway. Overall, if they are "not bringing something to the table" then there is no use being involved with such things. The community can only survive if people team and work together in solving problems.

[exxos]

AS for me, the computers i found in class were Thomson MO5, MO6 and sometimes TO7, at least in middleschool, later i saw my first wintel things.
Why not ataris, amiga or c64 (or even asmtrad)? Because there was a contract between the government and Thomson which forced schools to use those computers you'll find only in france or italy (but branded olivetti).
This was tough, those were allready old since it was 8bits computers. And in the end, 90% of what we did on them was playing games, the profs didn't know what to use them for!

And my first ever own computer was.... a handed down (by my father) Thomson MO6 in pretty bad shape, my baby brother and sisters were a bit rough on it.

We had BBC computers at my middle school. Then one main computer which was a 286 PC I think. Wasn't much to do with them really.

High school they had mostly RM Nimbus machines..

Sadly they wouldn't let me take computer studies later on Mostly took subjects wasn't interested in.

I remember "logo" or "turtle" , draw shapes and such with vectors & numbers mostly. Was fun stuff. Exercises took me like 30 seconds to do, rest of the class all lesson or more. I used to get told off because I wasn't doing the assignments. Well I did them, got bored, so improved on them, made multiple shapes, with colours, but because it wasn't the assignment, I basically got abuse from the teachers. So, I just say fine, ok, I will do the assignment and then look out of the window for the next 2 hours then

[Maeke]

teachers teachers, they can't imagine that a student is better than them, and when they do realize it can be hell for said student.
For me it turned out nice, i was asked to repair some lab equipment, like GBF, oscilloscop, and lab psus.
Can't forget the day when i got a red mark on an electronic test's answer, called the prof, explained my reasoning and finished with the best grade for this test.
And one of my classmates yelled "shit, even when he is wrong, he is right in the end!"

[rpineau]

Ah the good old day of the MO5 and TO7.. and me and my friends knowing more about computer than the teachers
Rodolphe

[IngoQ]

In my school we had PCs. In grade 7-10 there was a computer group, where a teacher tried his best to teach us kids how to use a basic word processor (Star Office at that time). It took half a year and then he asked me to continue this group... he said because of lack of time, but really computers weren't his strong side That was fun, really...

In 10-12th grade we had real informatics as school subject, but this in fact was a lot harder. We had to program in Pascal, I remember sitting over datatree structures, relative and absolute pointers etc. This was basically the time when I decided NOT to become a programmer. It would have bored me, to ONLY write software. So instead I went into the electronic side of office machinery, then industrial IT and now IT in general. Funny how it goes...

The really funny thing is: Us nerds of that time, I believe we have a much deeper understanding of technology, because we know and have experienced where it came from. Today the kids use their tablets of course, but they have absolutely no idea what is happing underneath the nice gui. When I do job interviews for new trainees this becomes painly obvious.

And I STILL write Batchskripts, like I used to do 25 years ago... some things really never change

[rpineau]

Rodolphe, are you french?

Thomson MO5 and TO7 was used into all the french schools early 1985.
It was a disaster

Yes am I.. I mean no I'm not .. I'm Breton
And yes that was a total sh*t show.
Rodolphe