EU GPSR: Exxos, do you have an EU point of contact?

[exxos]

I'd like to say that if it was me I wouldn't care.
But then again, that's easy to just say when not actually operating a business. I'm sure the tune would be different if I was :)

Is always a lot easier to take risks when you are the one not taking them :)

The EU regulations state huge fines and risk of imprisonment depending on the offence. No small seller is going to want to touch that with a barge pole. Its why I shut down EU sales, because why bother with any of the risk or the hassle just to sell a few packages to Europe every year ?
I would really assume that the first step of all this would be sending a cease and desist order.. But really nobody knows as its all poorly documented.

I would also argue the stuff you sell shouldn't apply. Though I probably wouldn't want to be the guy footing the bill to argue the case, grey area or not and regardless of internet wisdom :)

It shouldn't apply no. But the packaging law basically says any package which is not sent as a gift. We cannot send gifts as part of a commercial sale so the packaging law applies..

But also don't forget eBay have been enforcing all this as well.. Its charging its sellers percentages for the packaging law compliance.. But I'm not really sure even eBay can figure out the GPSR mess, nevermind anything else. There's been a lot of confusion across various videos about the whole thing.

It's not like a lot of all these recent home-made or small scale electronics that is being made and sold are strictly legal anyway, but chances of anyone even caring for these kinds of small scale stuff has to be extremely slim?

Chances of anyone caring, no, but it only takes one a$$hole to report me, then what ? It is likely what happened when PayPal shut me down.
Problem is as well we don't know how things are going to get through customs and what checks they are actually doing on it all. Nobody knows.

FCC testing and approval if selling to the US? yeah right, who does that for some home-made / hobbyist sound-card or whatever.
CE / UKCE marking? Sure, it's easy to slap one on there but do you have your technical documents ready and at hand should you be required to submit proof that your "self assessment" testing was reasonable, valid and conformant?

All that only applies to final products. At least from what the EU rules say. No idea about the USA. To many rules and regulations, the whole thing can keep your wrapped up for years.

But on the other hand I think it's completely bonkers when it hits small business much like yours.

Yep. I wrote a letter to easily 20 media / newspaper outlets and not one of them is acknowledged or even published my concerns. The problem is there's lot of implications for the government and other people let alone the EU regulations and the killing small businesses with nobody even caring about it. While they have published some limited stories.. well.. I could literally write several pages rant on all that. Other than youtube people doing videos on it all, nobody seems to care. Small businesses are simply closing down, scaling back or will not ship into the EU anymore.

It's not just EU. UK too has packaging laws but that version appears much more sensible by targetting only large businesses that produce and sell a lot of product (ie; flooding the country with packaging/non-essential waste)

The UK laws appear to be trying to align to the EU regulations and proposed documents which I have briefly looked at.

I did write to lotharek about it, he said all this has been around for eight years and there are companies to deal with it.. I don't know where we gets that figure from, but there are companies which will deal with it all but it comes at a expense. But the thing is on his website he only list the German compliance number. So unless he has not published for the European numbers or is not complying to anyone's but Germany I don't know.

[mikro]

Not sure why it works / is allowed or tolerated but stuff going through Tindie, which is an US company, is completely freed of this as far I could tell from speaking to some sellers. Not sure why (as you are outside the EU same as they are) but so far there are no restrictions (or additional fees related to packaging / waste disposal), even if the buyer is from the EU.

[exxos]

Not sure why it works / is allowed or tolerated but stuff going through Tindie, which is an US company, is completely freed of this as far I could tell from speaking to some sellers. Not sure why (as you are outside the EU same as they are) but so far there are no restrictions (or additional fees related to packaging / waste disposal), even if the buyer is from the EU.

Interesting... I can only ask the AI about it...

Tindie, as an online marketplace, operates differently from platforms like eBay. While eBay has introduced a Regulatory Operating Fee to offset compliance costs with various regulations, including packaging laws
GOV.UK
, Tindie has not implemented a similar fee structure.

However, it's important to note that regardless of the platform's policies, individual sellers are responsible for ensuring their products comply with applicable packaging regulations in the countries they operate or ship to. This includes adherence to the Packaging (Essential Requirements) Regulations in the UK
GOV.UK
and the forthcoming Extended Producer Responsibility (EPR) regulations set to be implemented in 2025
FLAMEUK
.

Therefore, even if Tindie does not impose specific compliance fees, as a seller, you are still obligated to meet the relevant packaging compliance requirements to avoid potential legal issues

.

[exxos]

Grok says..

Tindie's Role vs. Seller's Responsibilities:

Marketplace vs. Seller Compliance:

Tindie as a Platform: Tindie, being a marketplace for makers and electronics enthusiasts, does not produce or package products itself. Therefore, it does not directly need to comply with PPWR in terms of product packaging. However, marketplaces like Tindie have a role in ensuring that their platform policies align with legal requirements.

Seller Responsibility: The primary responsibility for compliance with packaging laws like the PPWR falls on the sellers who are actually placing products into the market. This means each seller must ensure their products (including packaging) comply with EU regulations if they are selling to EU countries.

Platform Responsibilities:

Facilitating Compliance: While Tindie does not have to package products, they might need to:

Inform Sellers: Educate sellers about compliance requirements.
Update Policies: Adjust seller policies or terms of service to reflect new regulatory demands.
Support Tools: Provide tools or resources for sellers to manage compliance (like documentation templates or compliance checklists).
Legal Compliance: Tindie would need to ensure its operations comply with broader EU ecommerce regulations, which might include facilitating seller compliance indirectly.

Misconceptions or Statements by Sellers:

Misinterpretation: Some sellers might mistakenly believe or state that because Tindie doesn't handle the physical packaging, they don't need to comply. This is incorrect; every seller is responsible for ensuring their products meet regulatory standards.
Small Volume Misconception: There's a notion that small sellers might not need to comply due to low volume or the informal nature of selling on platforms like Tindie. However, even small sellers shipping to the EU must adhere to PPWR if their products are packaged.

Practical Implications for Sellers on Tindie:

Packaging Checks: Sellers should review their packaging materials, ensure recyclability, and comply with any new labeling or design criteria.
EPR Registration: If selling to EU countries, sellers might need to register for EPR, manage fees, and report as required by the countries they ship to.
Documentation: Keep records of compliance efforts, especially if selling across multiple EU states.

Conclusion:
Tindie's Role: Tindie itself isn't required to comply with packaging regulations for products sold by others. However, they might assist by providing resources or policy updates to help sellers comply.
Seller's Role: Each seller on Tindie must comply with the PPWR if they're selling into the EU. This includes ensuring their packaging meets the new standards, registering for EPR where necessary, and handling all associated documentation and fees.

If you're a seller on Tindie and you're hearing claims that compliance isn't necessary, it's advisable to double-check with Tindie's official communications or seek independent verification of regulatory requirements for your business.

[exxos]

This seller seems aware..

https://www.tindie.com/stores/tynemouth/

And

https://www.tindie.com/stores/8086net/items/

[mikro]

Interesting. I'm just mentioning it because I wanted to purchase some stuff from a classic eshop and ebay and I couldn't (as the seller refused to cope with all that crap) but pointed me to his Tindie shop and all went fine, could purchase the same stuff and it is on its way to me...

[exxos]

Interesting. I'm just mentioning it because I wanted to purchase some stuff from a classic eshop and ebay and I couldn't (as the seller refused to cope with all that crap) but pointed me to his Tindie shop and all went fine, could purchase the same stuff and it is on its way to me...

It seems they doing so illegally then...Every seller can be hit with a fine..Now imagine every seller worldwide being hit with fines.. a lot will shut down.. But i doubt the number of sellers is insignificant either... Hence my concern of worldwide ramifications under the current framework.. A lot of eBay sellers are having ongoing issues with all this and turning off EU sales.

It brings me back to my point of how the EU and customs are going to police it all. Obviously not very well currently..

[Steve]

How can some governing body in the EU fine a business in the UK anyway? Surely if Australia sent you a fine it literally would mean nothing? To actually enforce the fine they'd have to go through some international country to country judicial referral system, and to do that surely it'd have to be more serious, like criminal.

[exxos]

How can some governing body in the EU fine a business in the UK anyway? Surely if Australia sent you a fine it literally would mean nothing? To actually enforce the fine they'd have to go through some international country to country judicial referral system, and to do that surely it'd have to be more serious, like criminal.

No idea. That's what I'd like to know. It mentions fines and imprisonment if you don't comply.

[exxos]

The whole thing seems to get even more confusing the more I look into it. I've sent loads of companies tons of questions about all this but getting a response many of them is a ongoing nightmare. :pullhair: :headbang: :stars:

I signed up with one company which should take care of all the problems by basically giving them a ton of money.. Actually they had a free country "trial". The package would cost over £400 a year for this service. But then they just give instructions for signing up with LUCID.. Which I knew already.. So why give them £400 if they just going to "ship me" off to somewhere else to sign up. I can look on the internet for this information for free myself. So such companies seem somewhat pointless at this point.

So it will basically render these companies mostly useless because they are not actually paying the packaging fees at that point. They are not anything more than a consultancy service. So people signing up with this service think they are covered just by paying them the money then that is not actually the case. I keep asking for clarification about all that stuff..

One particular company said they have a premium package but I would not need it for what I am doing. They claim their basic package takes care of everything, but takes care of what exactly ? If it takes care of everything then why does a premium package even exist ?! :pullhair: :headbang: Obviously they are not taking care of everything with their basic package if I have to manually sign up with other places anyway.. If I have to sign up with 30 different states to submit information and pay bills then its not worth all the trouble.. The whole idea of paying a company was to get rid of all this burden, but I'm really starting to question exactly what they are doing now :roll:

Don't even get me started on the stickering requirements...

Hopefully I will start getting some replies later today to clarify exactly what I am and I'm not supposed to be doing. Money can be recovered on postage costs to Europe to pay these companies off, but it's the amount of admin work and potentially buying millions of different stickers and god knows what else at this point which makes it totally pointless in doing all this work is to ship a few packages to Europe every year. It is just more cost-effective to not bother.

I haven't given up totally still trying to find a solution.. As I must have spent over 100 hours in trying to figure all this out so far. It doesn't help when companies don't answer questions and are very vague in their frequently asked questions section on their sites as well.

EDIT:

From what I can tell thusfar :

The service appears to be more about guidance, support, and simplifying the process rather than doing everything for you. If you were expecting a full-service where they manage every detail, including direct interactions with bodies like LUCID, then you might feel the service doesn't meet your expectations.

So site sites which claim like £20 per country per year, are only providing guidance to what you need to do. While this helps, Its £400+ per year where I would then still have to do all the admin work 30 times myself.. no thanks.. I don't want to keep track on stuff I am doing now, nevermind adding huge more work onto it all.

I would actually need "Full-Service Management" which may not be even possible. I mean if £400 is just for "guides" then how much more is full service going to cost... Its looking less and less likely this will ever get fixed. So it's taken me a long time to figure out that the money you pay for compliance isn't actually doing what you expect it to do.. In fact I would go as far to say that all these companies are basically misleading you in what services they actually offer and what they are actually doing..

Also..

Businesses selling across multiple countries need to manage multiple EPR numbers, each with potentially different requirements.

So loads of different stickers with different numbers on.. 30 times over..

This seems to be a similar problem with recycling labelling, though the EU seemed to be trying to harmonise that, but nothing is cast in stone and everything is very vague or undecided yet anyway.

This is what it all basically boils down to in a single image...

The way things are going, I would have to add about £20 per order in the EU to cover all the time and costs involved with keeping on top of everything. Even so, its work I do not want. So unless the company can offer a "one stop shop" for all this, at a affordable price, it's just (and still is) gameover for EU sales. At least I tried.

There is still a very small glimmer of hope that the premium packages or full compliance service may not be as much as I expect but I am never one for optimism.. But even so, implementing the system to cope with all the labelling would still be a further problem.. I think the costs and time involved in ongoing keeping on track of it all to simply outweighs what little I make shipping packages to EU. The whole system is just way too complicated, way too many "fingers in the pie" way to time consuming and way to expensive. I mean seriously, who has the time to register in 30 different countries and keep on track of all packaging sent to that individual country and keep on track of all the fees and whatnot..