EU GPSR: Exxos, do you have an EU point of contact?

[agranlund]

For the last few months (6-8?), whenever I send something to Europe, the Postal clerk
on my end (this is USPS), shows me a pop-up window proclaiming that even though I've paid
the shipping charges, the recipient will probably have to pay an additional fee on their
end before they can take possession of the package I'm sending.

Perhaps just them starting to inform you about something that has pretty much "always" been in effect when importing from outside EU?
Here, import duty ends up being an additional for me as the receiver to get the package released, as well as some "handling fee" that the local post service charges to take care of clearing the item from custom (or whatever it is they pretend that fee is for... )

And then the VAT of course unless it's from some company that has already payed that in.


When UK was in EU I tended to avoid getting stuff from US when possible but nowadays UK and US ends up being all the same in terms of import duty and VAT so most of the stuff I "have" to get from outside EU usually ends up coming from US due to price and the much larger selection - depending on exchange rate and shipping cost of course.

[Darklord]

Perhaps just them starting to inform you about something that has pretty much "always" been in effect when importing from outside EU?
Here, import duty ends up being an additional for me as the receiver to get the package released, as well as some "handling fee" that the local post service charges to take care of clearing the item from custom (or whatever it is they pretend that fee is for... )

And then the VAT of course unless it's from some company that has already payed that in.


When UK was in EU I tended to avoid getting stuff from US when possible but nowadays UK and US ends up being all the same in terms of import duty and VAT so most of the stuff I "have" to get from outside EU usually ends up coming from US due to price and the much larger selection - depending on exchange rate and shipping cost of course.

Hmm, I guess it could be that. Odd though, that I wasn't seeing this at the start of the year.

Thanks.

[Oldskool]

Since brexit paying tax + handling fees on all items from the UK here.
And indeed it adds up.
Is often close to 1/3 of the final price paid. So when I buy something from eg Exxos his shop for 200 euro it will be 300 when it arrives at my doorstep.
With ebay sometimes you have the option to let the seller pay the vat then its closer to a 20% uplift.

[Steve]

People wonder why there's so much Chinese junk around the world, this is exactly the reason, the exorbitant prices we pay just to have the West trade with the West.

How many people here know that China is classed as a 3rd world country when it comes to postage, which means that all their postage is subsidized by our taxes (all of our taxes, from western nations) So when you order your cheap stuff from Aliexpress, that's why the postage is next-to-nothing or even free sometimes.

At COP26 recently African nations were complaining why China, the worlds 2nd? largest economy, is still classed the same as poor African countries. It's some serious exploitation going under 90% of peoples noses, anyone I talk to isn't aware of it.

[JezC]

I briefly caught a bit of a discussion about this on Politics live at lunch time, so finally some discussion has reached the press.

I'll avoid inflaming any discussion here by avoiding the politics they were arguing over but I'd say that it appeared to me that it was still not well understood by some of the politicians on the programme...

[AdamK]

Just small note: authorised representative is not required, as worded in GPSR (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content ... 88#cpt_III): "A manufacturer may, by means of a written mandate, appoint an authorised representative".

[Cosmic Puppet]

Ramifications

Often wondered why it was so hard to buy things from America. Crazy postage whacking the price up.
A lot of EU sellers like Germany not selling to UK on Ebay now, and my now old stock AtariSTFM from France probably wouldn't happen now.

There doesn't seem to be a will when it comes to leveling the playing field.

Interesting video. I had no idea!

[exciter]

This really does sound like a nightmare for small businesses and retro hobbyists alike. It’s a shame how regulations like these can impact niche communities. Interestingly, the other day, I came across this tourism article (https://gowithguide.com/blog/tourism-in ... -know-5275) showing how interconnected trade and travel are. If restrictions like these keep piling on, it might not just hurt small sellers but also enthusiasts traveling for events and markets. Fingers crossed for some clarification or flexibility down the line!

[exxos]

Just so people know, I am still working on this problem... It's soaking up a lot of my time unfortunately

GPSR: There are clear exceptions in the law and "basically" it only really applies to final standalone products. Things like a TV are a final products. Selling parts for a TV doesn't "basically" apply. Parts do have to have "reasonable" risk assessment. As all my stuff is low power and low voltage, there isn't much risk anyway. . I haven't looked into everything yet either, things like soldersuckers may be seen as a final product but as they need other stuff to work, like a soldering iron... It's a bit of a grey area currently. So very very very long story short,GPSR "basically" doesn't apply.to what I'm selling in general.

The real problem is the package laws. Most people heard of the German one. Some eBay sellers even went to paying for compliance.BUT it's not just Germany which have the packaging law. In fact almost all EU states have the law! So those just paying for the German one are still operating illegally in almost all other EU states.

It further gets complicated as each EU state has it's own thresholds for fees on packaging. Some states which nobody cares about don't seem to even have the packaging law enforcement. Others have thresholds which wouldn't effect people like me. Others have zero thresholds so you have to pay regardless if you send 1 package or 100s of packages. But its changing on what states do what over the next months /.years.

But it gets "worse". The EU seem to be scrapping that system for a new EU-Wide Harmonization over individual package laws . In one respect it sounds better admin wise. But it likely means all current exceptions will go out the window. So basically paying more for all states most likely.

The problem is, while I could charge additional fees to recover costs to EU, there's no point me updating my store system to deal with it all when EU are scrapping the law for updated ones. But currently I'm having problems even finding out what the new law is even going to do.

Currently you can pick and chose which EU states you want to ship to as they have individual laws. But if there is only going to be one law, I can only assume there is going to be a huge lump fee for all EU states. Which is going to make things monumentally worse if that's the case.

I'm still annoyed by it all. I mean it basically means when someone buys something, including the packaging, I'm having to pay to deal with someone's else's rubbish. I mean are people in Europe not paying for their own recycling costs ?! I get the law is supposed to help with dealing with the amount of packing waste. But shouldn't people pay for their own rubbish to be taken away ?! If someone buys 1 item per year or 1,000 items per year, surely it's the person buying the stuff which should pay more as they buying more stuff which is more packaging ?! Well it's a pointless debate as it's been cast in stone now anyway.

So that's basically where I've got up to. There's no point paying £100's into the old system if it's basically obsolete now. So it's finding out next what the new law actually is.. I can't imagine things will work out cheaper with the new law. They might ?! But I have little optimism it's going to make things any cheaper or easier.. So the chaos continues..

[agranlund]

GPSR: There are clear exceptions in the law and "basically" it only really applies to final standalone products. Things like a TV are a final products. Selling parts for a TV doesn't "basically" apply. Parts do have to have "reasonable" risk assessment. As all my stuff is low power and low voltage, there isn't much risk anyway. . I haven't looked into everything yet either, things like soldersuckers may be seen as a final product but as they need other stuff to work, like a soldering iron... It's a bit of a grey area currently. So very very very long story short,GPSR "basically" doesn't apply.to what I'm selling in general.

I'd like to say that if it was me I wouldn't care.
But then again, that's easy to just say when not actually operating a business. I'm sure the tune would be different if I was
I would also argue the stuff you sell shouldn't apply. Though I probably wouldn't want to be the guy footing the bill to argue the case, grey area or not and regardless of internet wisdom

It's not like a lot of all these recent home-made or small scale electronics that is being made and sold are strictly legal anyway, but chances of anyone even caring for these kinds of small scale stuff has to be extremely slim?
FCC testing and approval if selling to the US? yeah right, who does that for some home-made / hobbyist sound-card or whatever.
CE / UKCE marking? Sure, it's easy to slap one on there but do you have your technical documents ready and at hand should you be required to submit proof that your "self assessment" testing was reasonable, valid and conformant?

I'm still annoyed by it all. I mean it basically means when someone buys something, including the packaging, I'm having to pay to deal with someone's else's rubbish.

I both agree and disagree at the same time
In one way it's probably good to somehow control the quality of, and how much, packaging and other non-item crap producers can include with their product. But on the other hand I think it's completely bonkers when it hits small business much like yours.

It's not just EU. UK too has packaging laws but that version appears much more sensible by targetting only large businesses that produce and sell a lot of product (ie; flooding the country with packaging/non-essential waste)