CPU speeds... and why Amiga will never "come back"

[exxos]

But Amiga never "left" ?

In talking about machines in general. "Atari" made a "come back" with the VCS. Debatable as that is by itself. I think this thread has diversified into a few other topics as well ( not complaining of course).

Retro machines have made some "come back" as we would not be here would we. But if people are talking of "come back" as in something "useful" in 2020.. Well likely not so much due to reasons already mentioned. Any retro machines "come back" would have to compete with modern systems such as Windoze, Android, Linux etc. it is just not going to happen.

I think mostly, like me, we have these machines growing up and always wanted to expand them but could never afford it at the time. It leaves no "closure" to the platform. All the "what if's" Never get answered. Certainly these machines are here for enjoyment as a hobby not as a commercial tool like modern PC's are.

I think also the problem with modern computing is it has been dumbed down for the masses. "plug a card in - done". Mostly troubleshooting is always software which is just a never-ending PITA. Is not a enjoyable platform for me. Where is the fun in plugging in a faster graphics card ? Yeah probably debatable again by itself. A PC is just a tool, like my car, or a dustbin, I don't really care about it.

It is not like the past where you are trying to get Doom running in DOS. We did not even have interrupt sharing back then. Adding your graphics card not to conflict with the sound card and various other things on the motherboard was low-level hardware diagnostics. It was something interesting and something to figure out. This is really lost with modern platforms. PC's are just for the masses and just simply sterile environment unless you want to spend half of your life troubleshooting other people software which I continuously seem to be doing.

With this retro stuff, you get your hands dirty. Back when computing was more like building your own machine from scratch and enjoying your work. I think this is what mostly we are here for. Getting something a bit more out of the machine by fitting a accelerator or updating the ROMs etc. there was real work involved. There was something to troubleshoot and the feel of accomplishment when it works. Changing a card in a PC, really who the hell cares about it. It is about as far as modern PC " engineers" do these cards. You are a qualified electronics engineer if you can swap out a card in a PC and fix it.

I think we really would have to define what "come back" is. Certainly retro machines have made a comeback of sorts. But to "come back" in the modern world, not so much.

[alexh]

Some good points. Interesting thread.

But the Sinclair Spectrum should "never come back", the Spectrum Next isn't a capable computer, it can't replace your daily driver, but it is fun to own and once in a while, on a weekend, mainly for nostalgia, it's fun to drive. I believe it has been reasonably successful?

ReAmiga 500/1200, AA3000+, Pheonix A1000 etc. all "shouldn't have happened" there is no logical, or economic sense, no computing sense. Just nostalgia and "because I can".

Amiga branded hardware and/or AmigaOS is never going to come back as a daily driver.

I believe there is space (at least for a little while, until former Amiga users start dodging coffins) for a nostalgia driven "Amiga Next". Crowd funded, community developed. The relative success of the A500 mini is testament to it don't you think?

Whatever way it went, it would be nostalgia driven, not usability/computer power or boundary breaking.

I am a big fan of MPSoC (Multi Purpose SoC), they tend to be mid range ARM based SoCs with portion of FPGA like programmable logic. We are going to see that space explode in the future. MiSTer was developed with one of the earliest MPSoCs and more and more are coming from AMD/Intel.

[Dbug]

Adding your graphics card not to conflict with the sound card and various other things on the motherboard was low-level hardware diagnostics. It was something interesting and something to figure out. This is really lost with modern platforms. PC's are just for the masses and just simply sterile environment unless you want to spend half of your life troubleshooting other people software which I continuously seem to be doing.

Kind of, when you buy the system all built.

But when you buy the parts yourself, and assemble the whole set, then spend time tweaking the settings, overclocking, checking the temperature in order to get much more performance from the same components, it gets kind of interesting.

My gf for example built pretty much the same configuration as I did when we both upgraded during the first Covid year, but she decided to go with water cooling. Not "off the shelf" already built system, but actually bought the acrylic tubes, connectors, cut and bent with a hot gun the parts, did the leak test, experienced with various pump controllers to find the proper ratio between "too much cavitation/noisy" and "gets too warm", including dismantling a brand new Geforce RTX to replace the mechanical fans by a compatible water cooling backplate

It's not the same type of things as getting your hands dirty with a f*sadsdfsdf**** non-cooperating Mega STe (sorry for disgressing), but that requires some skills and patience as well

[terriblefire]

To me who is a long time fan of "next-gen" Amiga systems (you know, the PowerPC thing we don't mention these days), this discussion just feels like groundhog day.

I'm sorry if its groundhog day for you today but for me its that continuously. Thats why I have turned off PMs and dont really talk to Amiga people anymore. Its just a never ending sea of requests for RTG and "when are we going to get modern browsers on an Amiga 500" etc etc.

It was almost 20 years ago, when we had MorphOS (and a bit later OS4), running 68k software on PowerPC, with faster-than native speeds on few hundred Mhz PowerPCs. Here it is the slowest supported MorphOS hardware, a 396Mhz Efika, running an Elude '060 demo (68k binary) with RTG support, faster than any real-68k-based Amiga ever could.) And this is hardware from 2006-7, and was super low-end even back then. Not to mention all the advanced OS features that are there for more than a decade and a half now, but only just getting into 68k systems, mostly in barely usable forms.

a MorphOS machine in a Mac Mini. Its great, cheap, does everything. I've repeatedly told people that thats what they should get if they want PPC.

And yeah, maybe PowerPC wasn't your thing, but long before PiMiga (or even a Raspberry Pi) was a thing, we had Amithlon, that was doing essentially the same on x86 PCs...

I'm a huge fan of AROS and i thought "Amiga" should have become a niche OS on a PC long ago. But ...

... I even tried to get a few hardware guys to work together on an early proto, but everyone dismissed the idea, as something "unrealistic". You know, everything is impossible until someone proves otherwise. Kudos to Claude (et.al.) for the PiStorm.

Stop doing this. This is REALLY IRRITATING. Hardware people DO NOT want to be pushed into doing your pet project. It always comes across as "i'm an ideas guy ... you just do all the details". We all get this at work.. we have to do what other people want. In our personal projects we want to be the ideas guy Its REALLY important to us to be able to use our skill to express what we want to do in that space.

If you want it YOU MAKE IT. If people think i'm rude to people on the internet about this you should try asking me this in it in person.... it will not end well.

The number of times I get a message to say "i've got his great idea"... Well you do it then because i don't believe in it. And probably if its not my original idea (at least to me when i think of it) i'm not interested in doing.

Now fair play the PiStorm guys for doing what they did. Its not my bag, my lane, its a bit too much like my day job and I've not helped them because it would be a conflict of interest having become deeply involved in the Buffee project which is basically competition. But i wish them all the best. But you have to believe in it to make something happen.

But that still doesn't fill the software gap. And MorphOS has a modern browser, that lets you watch YouTube & stuff, or use Google Docs/Office365 and similar "modern" things in an Amiga(OS)-like environment. Even if I'm a fan of ARM-based accelerators for classic, I wonder when 68k software emulated on a super-fast ARM gets here. 15 more years, I suppose. But of course, I also agree that modern computers are dull. Even modern-retro computers like the old Apple junk MorphOS runs on is a lot duller than any classic Amiga. No argument there. However, is it duller than a Raspberry Pi? I'm not so sure... I guess, everyone has their preferences when claiming things as dull.

The most important thing for me, I've realized over the years, is that as we replace chips we dont integrate them into a soul-less SoC. I want to the chips to dance together. Even if one is a fake so long as it can dance the same dance i'm happy. And the FPGA vs JIT thing is pretty irrelevant once its no longer the real thing.

For me it comes down to this. An Amiga is like a classic car. A PPC Amiga or an FPGA Amiga is, to me, like a home built kit car. Its not the real thing and its not as good as my modern car and no amount of bodykits and retrofitting is going to make it as good. I'm happy to swap in a new, original spec, engine on most of my Amiga's with electronic ignition and a modern fuel pump.. and a bluetooth radio but beyond that its not an Amiga.. with a huge caveat.. Thats how I feel. Its how a silent majority feel. In fact most people prefer to leave the thing alone and not upgrade the processor.

I think we really would have to define what "come back" is. Certainly retro machines have made a comeback of sorts. But to "come back" in the modern world, not so much.

Based on the comments i get people want amiga to be apple. But for me apple is what amiga would have become anyways.

[Chain-Q]

Stop doing this. This is REALLY IRRITATING. Hardware people DO NOT want to be pushed into doing your pet project. (...) It always comes across as "i'm an ideas guy ... you just do all the details".

Sorry if what I said tickled you the wrong way, but that was not at all what I meant. Back then, I didn't even know how to solder a cable together, let alone design hardware. But as an embedded software guy, I was totally signing up to work on the software side (emulator and drivers). I was still turned down. Just for the record.

If you want it YOU MAKE IT.

Indeed, I learned this. And started doing so, but it's a long way to go...

For me it comes down to this. An Amiga is like a classic car.

Ah, yeah, I also have a classic car, and the social similarities between retro car guys and retro computer guys are uncanny... So that analogy is spot on.

A PPC Amiga or an FPGA Amiga is, to me, like a home built kit car.

Well, depends, classic Amiga PPC cards is a lot of fun to fiddle with, that's like a restomod in car terms, converting your dad's daily driver to a fire-breathing hot rod. Too bad most people are priced out of that market. But yeah, I get your point, and in general, I agree.

[mikro]

we have these machines growing up and always wanted to expand them but could never afford it at the time. It leaves no "closure" to the platform. All the "what if's" Never get answered.

Nicely said!

[terriblefire]

Sorry if what I said tickled you the wrong way, but that was not at all what I meant. Back then, I didn't even know how to solder a cable together, let alone design hardware. But as an embedded software guy, I was totally signing up to work on the software side (emulator and drivers). I was still turned down. Just for the record.

The whole tone of your whole post was "I knew what needed to be done but nobody would do it for me". I dislike that. If you have gone on and done stuff then fine but then its unclear why you brought it up?

I probably have dismissed lots of good ideas that people will be bitter about in the future. I've dismissed them not because they were good or bad but because I don't want to do those things. Its for them to make them happen not me. When people that say something is impossible they really mean they dont want to do it.

I started this thread because there seems to be an impression among *some* parts of the retro community that the amiga just needs a few more MIPs and it'll be competing with PCs again. I wanted to highlight just how big a gap there is now. Its not 10 or 100 times.. its 100,000.

[sporniket]

If you want it YOU MAKE IT.

That's my plan, and the road will be long.

I think mostly, like me, we have these machines growing up and always wanted to expand them but could never afford it at the time. It leaves no "closure" to the platform.

Totally agree on that for me, I'm back because nostalgia/the 40' crisis/whatever. I'm into the 68k instruction set and wish to have a multi-core SoC implementing it. So learning, trying, learning some more. And I am fortunate to still have a steady hand and a yet good enough sight (even if presbytia has started to be unavoidable).

[Chain-Q]

The whole tone of your whole post was "I knew what needed to be done but nobody would do it for me". I dislike that.

Well, that is true, and yes, I'm kinda sour in retrospect, because I let myself talked out of an idea (which I'm sure I wasn't to the first one to come up with, btw) that ended up changing the Amiga landscape several years later. However, from my perspective, it wasn't "no one was doing it for me", it was "I couldn't find partners for it". As I said, I was willing to do the software. There was also money involved/offered. Not a lot, admittedly, but it wasn't at all like "be my hardware slave do my stuff for free so I can be famous pls kthxbye" which you were implying. And the argument against it was always "it's not feasible technically", that ended up being proven wrong. But these are details that aren't really important by now, cause the whole thing didn't happen in the end. I understand it's a huge red flag for you, because how you've been treated by some people, but trust me, I'm also a creator, and open source contributor myself, and I know how users can push for crap for free and then throw a tantrum when they're not getting it. But that's not how this went down, like at all.

If you have gone on and done stuff then fine but then its unclear why you brought it up?

Due to the entire "FPGA or JIT is the future" discussion. I thought it was on topic, wanted to express that I'm firmly in the ARM JIT camp, a bit even before there was an ARM JIT camp. That's all. Anyway, I'm not looking for an argument, so lets just pretend I haven't written anything. At least I have nothing to add, and I'm totally fine with if we disagree on this in the end.

[SurfFerret]

Based on the comments i get people want amiga to be apple. But for me apple is what amiga would have become anyways.

2000-2010 era apple at least?
This is how my dad saw it - frustrated PC user until he got a Mac mini for work in 2006. Modern apple with SoC and sandboxing, I think that depends on whether you liked Amiga for being advanced before its time or for its clever design…

I remember reading in magazines about all the new stuff that was recommended for ‘060 - then the new PPC stuff - I didn’t have the money for that until long after Amiga Format’s last issue when it didn’t matter anymore. RTG was part of that story too. One day I would like to have a better experience of that then the Siamese system RTG I once used, but I’m not going to demand it of anyone. Certainly not to do the least differentiated task possible, my *car* has a browser!

If I ever get around to messing with the expansion slot - probably with a pistorm because this cursed idea doesn’t deserve any more effort - I would write a gadtools browser chrome but the viewport is a reverse-RTG from the expansion CPU rendering chromium into a palletized buffer. It’s got to be at least as fun and as good as the Siamese system was, and that was an actually shipping product. Back when computing was a little more fun, creative, and just as janky as it is today.