exxos's Atari, Amiga & retro forum

The latest mention of @exxos 's RSI-induced pain reminded me that I have tried some devices that differs from the classical full keyboard + typical mouse combo, mainly to lessen some light pains caused by computing all day long.

Maybe it would be helpful to share what we tried, what was helpful and what was not ? Any way I will start here.

"TKL keyboard" for addressing shoulder pain/fatigue when moving the mouse

At one point in my late 30s, my right shoulder protested a little against the hyper extension of my right arm to grab and move the mouse. The cause being that on the right of a typical office keyboard, there is a numeric keypad. And as a right-handed person, using the left hand instead is just a no go (I tried, and gave up quite quickly).

So, I avoided using keyboard having keypad. I bought myself a Logitech TK820, and was happy with it for long. On the minus side, using the touchpad when having dry skin is not always pleasant, plus the wrist is quite twisted.


Nowadays we are using laptops, so using the central touchpad, and lack of space, I shelved it, until next time I have to use a regular office keyboard again...

Typematrix 2030, blank keys + Bépo layout, for addressing fingers fatigue


This is my keyboard at home. A keyboard using an ortholinear layout. I bought it when I was interested in the newly created "Bépo" layout (a layout inspired by Dvorak layout, and tuned to the French language). They sold a keyboard with no silkscreen and a silicon covers having the Bépo layout silkscreen. My little one lost that covers some years ago, but anyway I had to learn to type this layout without looking at the keyboard, so I did not care.

The ortholinear is positively more confortable than the staggered layout for the left hand.

On the other hand (:D), being able to type without looking make me type faster and for a longer time, which causes more fatigue to my fingers and wrist. At least, using bepo, I save my pinky fingers from over-exertion.

Finally, I plan to test splitted keyboard in the future (making my own 2 wireless ortholinear keypads of 6 rows x 8 columns), so that my hand would have the same distance than my shoulders, instead of keeping them closes in the middle.

"Vertical" mouses, to address wrist fatigue/pains

My wrist got easily fatigued after it twisted too much during Aïkido practice, I got a wrist splint for half a year.

After seeing one of my coworker using a "vertical mouse", I bought one and tried it. I was not very convinced, mainly because the sleep mode was too early and required too much shaking.


At home I still use a regular mouse, and at the office, the touchpad of the laptop.

Wrist rest, to rest wrists (!)

In my early 40s, using the keyboard with the bottom of my palm resting on the table and the rest of the hand over the keyboard quiclkly becomes tiring and a little bit painfull. I was looking at those "jelly" wrist rests, but my wife just knitted me a big tube using a big thread. And waiting it to be made, rolling a medium-sized towel was ok. Anyway, its quite effective. The knitted tube, as well as the rolled towel, absorbs sweat and so does not feel sticky, event when its hot.


And that's all for me.

Interesting stuff thanks.

There is a site that I mentioned years ago which sell RSI related PC stuff. I purchased one of their " lightweight" keyboards where the keys were actually harder to press than my usual keyboard :roll: The thing is just sat on top of my wardrobe ever since.

The only thing I really use my keyboard for is doing corrections to typing. I use voice recognition these days. But even just doing the word corrections is a little bit too much for me to do generally day per day. Problem with voice recognition, is I suffer with sinus problems. So I am pretty much coughing and choking every minute of every day.

Touchscreens are generally a lot better but even the slight pressing on the screen bending my finger also "adds up". Not as much as using a physical keyboard but it is still limiting :( but using a touchscreen on a PC is not really a viable thing to do.

Mouse pads I just cannot get along with. They just seem to be always incredibly slow and inaccurate. I'm probably biased with older technology but again just a slight pressing down on the pad bends by fingers enough to cause pain as well.

I did try one of those mice like you suggest a long time back. It just felt too alien and like dragging a brick across the desk all the time. In the end I just got frustrated with the thing.

I am probably sitting in a bad posture and not really doing what I'm supposed to be doing but it does not really seem to matter how I sit or what I do. Just basic usage of my hands in any shape or form is going to hurt. Even just using a manual solder sucker on half a 68K DIP is enough to make my hands hurt these days.

I have spoken to "old secretaries" who ended up with the same RSI issues. The only really solution they come up with is using a touchscreen on a tablet and just not using a PC anymore at all.

Anyway did not intend this to be another rant about my health issues. I think when your health starts failing , rest is the only real solution. It is mostly why I'm getting stuff assembled these days even though it is costing me a absolute fortune.

@Icky did a lot of PCB routing to take some of the strain off me but his time has been somewhat limited lately. Most of the projects I'm doing now are just smaller ones like the new TOS206 board. It is a battle as you no doubt know just keeping stuff in stock in my store never mind actually designing anything new.. But anyway that's a whole other set of problems.

I have tried a vertical mouse before. It felt more natural, less of a twist on my wrist, but I couldn't get used to it. I try to use my mouse so infrequently preferring the touchpad or "nipple" for anything except dragging.

I've tried DIVORAK keyboard layout but I've been a self-taught touch-typist for 30 years and I couldn't stick it out through the "pain" of getting used to the new layout..

I tried a "microsoft natural keyboard" which splits the keyboard in two, each half is partially rotated and more aligned to the natural position of your hands. It definitely reduces some of the wrist stress. But they are all vertically positive curved, like a dome and I found it had the opposite effect giving me more RSI as all my fingers felt I was lifting them constantly.

The most natural keyboard I've ever used is a Maltron keyboard.


It reduces the stress of typing incredibly. They are not cheap but each key is the opposite to the M$ natural keyboard, they are recessed instead of domed and correct length for your fingers. It takes a LOT of getting used to. I tried it once a few years ago (erm 17 years ago) but I could not take it with me when I moved jobs. I had absolutely no wrist pain when I typed on this keyboard. Because I was self taught I use the wrong fingers for some of the keys in the middle. Takes a long time to get used to switching fingers for both the Microsoft and the Maltron keyboard..

Without a doubt the best ergonomic device I've got is my stand up desk (basically a desk you can electrically raise and lower). Having the desk at the right height resolved a lot of my "carpal tunnel" pain. And also my back pain as I can raise it to chest height and stand up for 20 minutes and keep working.

https://yo-yodesk.co.uk/products/yo-yo-desk-pro-3-plus

I had some issues with RSI a couple of years ago, and tried some methods to cope with it.

Adjusting the height and position of my desk and my chair at work had a huge impact, so I always would suggest doing something about that first.

I tried curved keyboards, and indeed it gave a lot of relief especially on the wrists, but I found the mushy pressure points and bad quality to be more anyoing. I currently go with good quality mechanical keyboards in traditional layout, a full one here at work (Corsair K68) and a TKL (Ducky) at home. I have them flat on the table (no riser) and use a wrist rest, which gives me a good angle. So far I have no issues with this setup and my wrists and fingers are fine.

I still need to find a good mouse replacement, I like trackballs, but there aren't many in a good quality available, which is a bit of a bummer. I use a Kensington Orbit at work, which is okayish but not great. At home I use a regular mouse, and in comparison I can say that the trackball is a lot more pleasant to use. For me it has to be a trackball that can be used with the fingers as opposed to using it with your thumb. The latter would be something like the Logitech MX Ergo , but seems like my thumb is not flexible enough ;)

I have tested the Elecom Wireless Trackball, but had to send it back because of a high pitched noise that drove me nuts. Still need to try the wired version, mechanically it felt quite nice.

I have tried some different vertical mice, but for me it doesn't fell right, your mileage may vary ;)

I can recommend is using a big mouse, not a tiny little portable thing and having vast amounts of space in front of the keyboard (as below). Rest your whole forearm, not just your wrist.

Not perfect high end certainly, but an absolute basic starting point, IMO.

BW

I am a bit more limited on space :(

exxos wrote: 27 Sep 2022 15:14 I am a bit more limited on space :(

Yeah, I couldn't do any extended work like that (and is actually one of the reasons I've never liked the late 80s wedge design favoured by ST, Amiga, etc).

Well, apart from the SAM Coupé which, sensibly, put the keyboard at the back of the wedge, naturally.

BW

My arm actually rests on the chair armrests.. The chair is marginally lower than the desk. But if my arm is raised up any higher it actually hurts my hands more oddly. It is more comfortable having my palm angled downwards. Though does hurt my wrist a little bit on the edge of the desk after a while. But does not really affect the RSI aspect of things.

Seeing the picture I'd recommend starting by trying some wristpads for mouse and keyboard. They will help in keeping your wrists less angled. You can the raise the armrests of your chair a little, so that they match the height of the rests and your keyboard. This should be a lot more comfortable, and is a quick and cheap thing to try ;)

Oh, and your desk screams for a trackball :-D It needs a lot less space than a mouse and you don't need to move your wrists that much.