exxos's Atari, Amiga & retro forum

And here's another potential headache for small sellers, relating to this article from today's Guardian ...

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... port-rules

It's about potential difficulties with the 'de minimis' rule and the new policies from the US, given the new president.

felicemaggie wrote: 17 Feb 2025 10:34 And here's another potential headache for small sellers, relating to this article from today's Guardian ...

Thanks, yeah "Trump Tariffs" on imports will likely increase costs to USA buyers. I think the threshold was about £800 before, but even low value goods will likely not be safe anymore.

I might have mentioned it before, that USA shipping is expensive enough as it is.. adding more costs isn't the best idea for overseas trade.. But that is trump's intention to have "Made in USA" back, which is a good idea in theory.. Other than you can't simply get everything in the world made in the USA.. Like retro goods... So another kick for "us" basically.

Plus the usual nonsensical Brexit "twist" which has nothing to do with it, or the USA. Honestly the media just make me sooo mad keep "word slinging" all the time :roll: All those media outlets need suing out of existence.. I already wrote about 60 pages on it all.. Will refrain from that here though.

I got a email this morning saying a UK solder factory has increased production and Europe trade. So I have sent them a message asking how they are dealing with the EU packaging laws... I have talked to them quite a bit in the past they have always seemed helpful, so we'll see what they say... I'm just more curious on anything if they are even aware of it all...

Oh the irony...

Imagine the EU as this big cheerleader for small businesses, waving a flag called the Small Business Act since 2008. It’s all about helping little guys—like you selling £5 retro computer parts—by promising to keep rules light and fair, saying, “We’ve got your back!” But then, with the other hand, they’re slamming you with a pile of regulations that make it impossible to survive.

Take EPR, this packaging law that’s been around and just keeps getting stricter—it forces you to pay £40 or more every year, per country, just to cover recycling for a few envelopes. Sell a £5 CPU to Germany? That’s £40 gone before you blink.

Then there’s GPSR, a new safety rule from December 2024, making you jump through hoops to prove your old RAM stick won’t explode, and PPWR, hitting in 2025, which says you’ve got to register and pay in every EU country you ship to by 2026—turning a £50 profit into a £100 loss fast.

The EU’s own reports admit small businesses are struggling—15% say they’re drowning in red tape—while sellers on X are yelling, “I got a £200 fine for £20 worth of sales!”

It’s like the EU’s promising you a lifeboat but tossing you an anchor instead, all because they care more about hitting green goals, like recycling half their packaging by 2030, than keeping you afloat. And the kicker? It’s only getting worse—fines are up, Amazon’s demanding paperwork, and there’s no sign they’ll ease up. One hand says, “We love small businesses!”—the other’s quietly choking them out.

Summary of the EU’s SME Protection Policy (Small Business Act)

The EU’s Small Business Act (SBA), kicked off in 2008 and refreshed in 2011 and 2021, is a promise to look out for small and medium enterprises—businesses with under 250 employees and up to €50 million in turnover, like your retro computer parts gig. It’s got ten big ideas, but the heart of it is simple: make life easier for small sellers by cutting red tape, keeping rules fair, and helping them sell across borders. Think lighter paperwork, cheaper compliance, or tax breaks—stuff to keep you from drowning in costs when you’re only making £5–£20 a pop.

The EU pushes this through things like loan programs (COSME) and a team of “SME Envoys” who nag governments to play nice. How good is it? It’s a nice thought—SMEs are 99% of EU businesses, and it’s helped with things like VAT thresholds (e.g., €85,000 in some places)—but it’s not a law, just a suggestion. When push comes to shove, it’s weak—big environmental rules steamroll it, and small sellers like you still get crushed.

Summary of How EPR and Related Laws Violate the EU’s SME Policy

Despite the SBA’s promise to protect small businesses, the EU’s own rules—like EPR (Extended Producer Responsibility), GPSR (General Product Safety Regulation), and PPWR (Packaging and Packaging Waste Regulation)—are stomping all over it.

EPR makes you pay £40–£120 a year per country just to ship a £5 retro CPU in an envelope, eating your profit before you start, while GPSR (since December 2024) piles on safety checks for your low-risk parts, and PPWR (rolling out 2025–2026) demands fees in every EU country you touch—turning £50 in sales into a £100 loss.

The SBA says “think small first,” but these laws don’t care—they hit everyone the same, all to chase green goals like 50% recycling by 2030. Sellers on X cry about £200 fines for £20 sales, yet the EU keeps tightening the screws, not loosening them—straight-up breaking its own “support SMEs” vibe with no relief in sight.

Is Anyone Fighting Against All These EU Regulations?

Yeah, there are folks out there—both people and groups—trying to push back against the EU’s crazy regulations like EPR, GPSR, and PPWR, saying they’re killing small businesses (SMEs) worldwide, including someone like me selling retro computer parts. They’re pointing out how this messes with the EU’s own “support small biz” promise in the Small Business Act (SBA), but it’s a tough fight. Here’s who’s swinging and what’s up as of March 1, 2025.

Who’s Fighting Back?

• SMEunited: Reps 12 million European SMEs—94% are tiny like us. Their boss, Véronique Willems, was at a Feb 2025 EU meeting yelling about how EPR’s £40–£120 fees per country wreck sellers making £5–£20 a sale. They’ve got papers and lobbyists, but not much luck yet.
• EPP Group: Big political crew in the EU Parliament. In Feb 2025, they pitched cutting “costly rules” like EPR and PPWR—£50 sales vanishing under £100 fees kills us. They’re strong, but green goals block them.
• EESC: EU advisory group. Feb 2025, they said SMEs are “drowning in red tape”—GPSR’s safety hoops since Dec 2024 are nuts for low-risk stuff. They suggest fixes, but it’s just talk, not action.
• Small Sellers: On X, Etsy forums, Reddit, sellers are mad. Jan 2025 X post: “EU’s EPR is a tax—£200 fines for £20 sales!” Folksy 2024 thread had people quitting EU sales, calling SBA a lie. Real voices, real pain.

Calling Out the Worldwide Damage
They’re saying it’s not just EU SMEs—sellers like me in the UK or US get hit too. EPR makes me pay £40 per country for a £5 CPU envelope—PPWR (mid-2026) says every EU state I ship to. Reddit 2023: “Stopped EU shipping—€50 fees for €10 carts.” EU’s huge, so we can’t skip it, but can’t afford it either. SMEunited ties it to SBA (2008, updated 2021)—99% of EU firms, 85 million jobs—yet EPR, GPSR, and PPWR laugh at “think small first.” 2024 SME Review says 15% of us are struggling.

Any Wins?

• Lots of Noise, No Change: SMEunited lobbies, EPP pushes, EESC reports—but EU’s not budging. PPWR (Nov 2024) ignored small-seller breaks despite 2023–2024 talks. Fines up (£200–£500, Germany 2024), Amazon demands EPR numbers—tighter, not looser.
• Why It’s Stuck: Green Deal (2019) cares more about recycling (50% by 2030, PPWR Article 46) than us—exemptions could lose €100M+ yearly (EUROPEN 2023). SBA’s weak, PPWR’s law. X Feb 2025: “Years of pain ahead.”
• Tiny Steps: Finland 2024 eased reporting under 1 tonne, but still €20–€50/year. Rare, not enough.

What’s Happening?
Lobbying’s on, sellers are shouting—X rants, forum exits like “EU’s a dead zone” (2025)—hoping outrage flips it. No big movement’s winning yet. EU knows (15% SME pain, 2024 Review), but green rules rule.

My Take
For my £5–£20 parts, it’s rough—fighters are trying, but the EU’s not listening.

I asked Grok about private households as that's still shipping boxes etc...

Yes, technically, even a private household shipping a gift to the EU is "placing packaging on the market" under the Extended Producer Responsibility (EPR) framework of the EU’s Packaging and Packaging Waste Directive (94/62/EC) and national implementations, as well as the incoming Packaging and Packaging Waste Regulation (PPWR) effective February 11, 2025. However, the practical enforcement of EPR rules for private individuals sending one-off gifts is effectively negligible compared to commercial sellers.

A “producer” is anyone who first introduces packaging into a member state’s market—commercial or not. If you, as a private individual, mail a gift (e.g., a retro computer part in a padded envelope) from outside the EU to an EU friend, you’re the producer of that packaging in the destination country.

EPR obligations include registering with a Producer Responsibility Organization (PRO), reporting packaging details, and paying recycling fees. For example, Germany’s VerpackG defines this broadly, covering “anyone” placing packaging on the market, with no explicit exemption for private households in non-commercial contexts.

The PPWR (Article 3) similarly defines producers without a household carve-out, focusing on the act of introducing packaging, not the intent (gift vs. sale).


So, legally, a private household shipping a gift to the EU triggers EPR for the packaging—say, a cardboard box or plastic wrap—same as a business.

TL;DR
Shipping a gift to a friend is actually illegal...

My take and opinion on it all so far...

EU Packaging Laws: A Burden on Small Sellers or a Missed Opportunity?

The EU’s packaging laws—driven by Extended Producer Responsibility (EPR)—aim to tackle waste, but they’re slamming small sellers worldwide with costs and complexity that threaten their survival. Could a simpler solution, like a small courier fee, have worked better? Here’s the breakdown as of March 1, 2025.

The Weight of EPR on Small Businesses
EPR, rooted in the Packaging Directive (94/62/EC) and soon the Packaging and Packaging Waste Regulation (PPWR, effective Feb 11, 2025), makes anyone shipping to the EU pay for recycling. Small sellers—think retro computer parts vendors—face:

• Fees starting at €50–€200 per year, per country (e.g., Germany’s LUCID, France’s CITEO), plus per-package costs (€0.05–€2 based on materials).
• Hours of paperwork—registering in each EU nation (PPWR Article 40, mid-2026), reporting every envelope’s weight, and dodging fines (€200–€1,200 seen in Germany, 2024).
• Profit wipes—low-value sales (€5–€20 items) can’t cover €50+ overhead, pushing sellers to quit EU markets entirely.

Posts on X (Jan 2025) call it a “death sentence” for SMEs, with a 2024 SME Review noting 15% buckling under red tape. Forums like Folksy (2024) show sellers abandoning Europe, saying it’s “not worth it.”

A Simpler Alternative: Courier Surcharge
Imagine this: instead of EPR’s maze, couriers like Royal Mail or DPD tack on a tiny fee—say, €0.06 (5p)—per package, funneling cash to recycling. Here’s how it could play:

• Easy: No forms, no PROs—couriers add the fee at checkout and handle the rest.
• Cheap: €0.60 for 10 packages, €6 for 100—small sellers keep their margins, unlike EPR’s €50 yearly hit.
• Effective: EU’s 447 million people churn out 84 million tonnes of packaging waste yearly (Eurostat, 2022). At 0.5kg per package, 168 million shipments could raise €10 million—less than EPR’s €100M+ target (EUROPEN, 2023), but simpler and scalable.
• Fair: Big players pay more, small fries pay less—proportionate, not punishing.

Couriers already track every parcel—adding a fee’s a breeze compared to EPR’s bureaucracy.

Why the EU Chose Complexity
So why go with EPR’s heavy hand? It’s baked into the Green Deal (2019)—“producer pays” is their mantra, pushing climate goals like 50% recycling by 2030 (PPWR Article 46). Big states like Germany (VerpackG, 2019) and France (CITEO, 2020) built EPR systems early, and the EU’s doubling down—PPWR locks it in by mid-2026. Critics on X (Feb 2025) say it’s “maximum pain for minimal gain,” but green lobbies and inertia keep it rolling. SMEunited and the EPP (Feb 2025) push for lighter rules, yet enforcement tightens—fines climb, no relief shows.

Missed Opportunity?
A courier fee could’ve funded recycling without breaking SMEs—£8.4M from 5p beats zero when sellers bail. EPR’s cost, effort, and destruction clash with the EU’s Small Business Act “think small first” vibe—99% of firms are SMEs, yet they’re collateral damage. The EU had a shot at balance but picked a sledgehammer over a scalpel.

I am still getting updates about this..

Anyone who produces, imports, or sells products in the EU is required to take responsibility for their entire lifecycle, including disposal and recycling. This Extended Producer Responsibility (EPR) covers various product categories such as packaging (Packaging EPR) and textiles (Textile EPR). In some countries, EPR also applies to furniture, mattresses, tires, and other products. France even has a Toy EPR. Additionally, the EU’s WEEE Directive regulates electronic waste, and let’s not forget EPR for batteries.

Toys EPR France: What companies need to know
­In France, in addition to the "classic" waste streams such as packaging, WEEE, and batteries, there are other product categories subject to Extended Producer Responsibility (EPR). The Toy EPR is a key component of France’s circular economy law. Manufacturers and online retailers placing toys on the French market must comply with specific EPR obligations for this waste stream. We provide an overview of the legal framework, registration requirements, and future challenges.

EPR applies to electronic toys across Europe
­EPR regulations for toys are not only relevant in France. In all other EU member states, toys with electronic components fall under the EU WEEE Directive, which stands for Waste of Electrical and Electronic Equipment. Since many toys are powered by batteries or rechargeable cells, the Battery Regulation is also applicable.

Find WEEE Authorized Representatives across Europe
­Anyone selling electrical devices across borders to end consumers must appoint an Authorized Representative in the target country. Tibor explains how this process works, what an Authorized Representative is, and why it is required.

Manufacturers of goods shipping to EU will have to deal with all this stuff, and prices to EU customers will no doubt go up on basically everything. The smaller businesses just won't bother to ship to EU anymore. Less goods, less competition, manufactures will put prices up again.. But at least they will likely reach their target of reducing waste I suppose.

Any smaller sellers, even tiny ones like me get kicked off the board. Plus it's going to get worse next year when they tighten the net even more. It just be easier for the EU to make it illegal fullstop for any SME to ship to EU anymore the way things are now. Like, if you turnover less than 10M in goods each year, goodbye. That's my version of all these rules and regulations. What a mess..

Normally march is my busiest time of year and sales have dropped to almost nothing. I looked about and looks like eBay Amazon PayPal shares have dropped about 20% while temu shares have gone up about 25%. All happened last month. That shift shouldn't effect me though really..

The EU mess seems to be taking its toll now... For example...

. Online sales tanking since Feb. New EU rules are a nightmare—half my parcels to Germany are stuck or returned.

Parcels to France and Germany stuck for weeks—GPSR’s a bloody mess. Half my stock’s non-compliant, and customs just bounce it back.”

.I can’t even sell to anyone in the EU or UK anymore because of all the fees and licenses I’d have to get, plus international shipping is so expensive

.Costs are another big gripe. Extended Producer Responsibility (EPR) rules, expanded in places like Spain in January 2025, are jacking up fees for waste management and packaging

So must be people still trying to ship to EU regardless..I've posted about similar issues I've read from people before anyway..

And this is just the beginning IMHO...

HigashiJun wrote: 28 Mar 2025 00:19 And this is just the beginning IMHO...

Yes... EU are adding the final nails in the coffin next year... But I'm sure they will find more nails afterwards.. I'm going to stop shipping to Germany next year. Just not worth it, I'll loose money.

exxos wrote: 28 Mar 2025 00:22 Yes... EU are adding the final nails in the coffin next year... But I'm sure they will find more nails afterwards.. I'm going to stop shipping to Germany next year. Just not worth it, I'll loose money.

This is the sad reality...