Twin Shifter mod Prototype build results

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mrbombermillzy
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Re: Twin Shifter mod Prototype build results

Post by mrbombermillzy »

sporniket wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 9:31 am however "Dark R+G (Greener Yellow) 0110" seems ligther than "Dark Green (LSB)+Dark R (yellow) 1100" as expected.
Sorry I wasn't clear, that anomaly was what I was implying when I mentioned 0110 in my post above.

I'm hoping the resistor bridging will get rid of the vertical lines in the display and clear up that green with red interference lines in the earlier post.
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mrbombermillzy
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Re: Twin Shifter mod Prototype build results

Post by mrbombermillzy »

So...

After some real life entanglements and some scary issues with nasty 'chocolate pin' DIP risers (!) we finally continue the journey.

As a recap, the RGB line resistors have been bypassed to boost colour output.

Going back to the test program I made which ONLY displays the (unfortunately LSB so darkest colour bits) top 4 of the 16 bits of the palette colour data, which neither the standard ST, or the Ste can use, to show some of the new colours, we are going to look at colour differences before/after.

So what appeared previously as:

HICONST.JPG
HICONST.JPG (105.76 KiB) Viewed 1899 times

Now shows a better colour representation overall:

P1040263.JPG
P1040263.JPG (72.74 KiB) Viewed 1899 times

As can be seen, colours have a better definition overall, with less vague murkiness but the 'chroma/luma' vertical lines are still there. Note that contrast/brightness have been turned up (as can be seen from the background brightness) but remember the same was done (above) originally too.

In a normally lit room, we can now see the colours better too:

P1040264.JPG
P1040264.JPG (90.7 KiB) Viewed 1899 times

Now onto the greyscale test images supplied by @sporniket designed to show the STe palette shades and any differences with regards to the regular ST palette shades.

The first one, I will show another before/after set.

This was before:

P1040237.JPG
P1040237.JPG (131.2 KiB) Viewed 1899 times

And now:

P1040272.JPG
P1040272.JPG (100.33 KiB) Viewed 1899 times

I guess the levels are harder to differentiate when all 3 RGB channels are involved and at higher values, but I believe there is slightly more of a clearer channel value definition on the later image.

Now, all seems very good so far. It's just this last image that puzzles me. Apparently it has the STe colours in columns below the white dots:

P1040270.JPG
P1040270.JPG (190.51 KiB) Viewed 1899 times

But for the life of me, I cannot see anything below the dots. Here's an even closer image that even shows the dots of the electron guns:

P1040269.JPG
P1040269.JPG (247.34 KiB) Viewed 1899 times

...but still no visible greys.

You may be seeing a slight 'something' there, but unfortunately I BELIEVE this is a screen display error due to the 'chroma/luma' bars. Perhaps changing to a 15Khz capable TFT screen may eliminate some of the more subtle image problems and provide further enlightenment?

While I'm at it, I must apologise for the sometimes ropey image quality. Sometimes the best colour separation images were taken with the screen scan halfway down the screen, sometimes I got a bad image with a perfectly off screen scanline. I presented here the best of a non perfect bunch.

This is what you get when crossing an iffy camera with a 30+ year old CRT! :lol:

Anyhow, it looks to be a generally positive result so far, apart from the puzzling last test image, which (it looked better with my eyes than it did in the 2 images above, but STILL I couldn't see anything) I'm not sure what to make of yet.

The other issue seems to be the C64c/128 style screen bars (as @stephen_usher seems to be suffering from). As far as I'm aware, on the C= machines, these are caused at least partly by memory accesses, so it will be interesting to see how to tackle these at a later point.

But for now, I think generally a thumbs up for progress made. :)
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stephen_usher
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Re: Twin Shifter mod Prototype build results

Post by stephen_usher »

All STs and the TT have those to some degree. I don't think anyone's diagnosed where the noise is coming from.
Intro retro computers since before they were retro...
ZX81->Spectrum->Memotech MTX->Sinclair QL->520STM->BBC Micro->TT030->PCs & Sun Workstations.
Added code to the MiNT kernel (still there the last time I checked) + put together MiNTOS.
Collection now with added Macs, Amigas, Suns and Acorns.
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sporniket
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Re: Twin Shifter mod Prototype build results

Post by sporniket »

@mrbombermillzy thanks for the comparisons before/after.

As for the last picture, maybe you could check on your TT or an emulated STe that the picture is indeed saved with STe palette, I may have saved the wrong palette (STf instead of STe) with deluxe paint.

edit: also, you can also check the displayed palette on the color selector, you should see some shades instead of black.
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sporniket
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Re: Twin Shifter mod Prototype build results

Post by sporniket »

Replying to myself, I opened the picture I sent you with grafx2, I can see the stripes, so the file is good.

edit : and the stripes should be colored as I put primary and secondary colors only, for different combination of bit planes. Maybe, I will modify the picture a little bit to add the palette on the top, to check on them

edit2 : also, this test picture was crafted specifically to assess the flaw spotted by @ijor in the other discussion :
ijor wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 10:10 pm
sporniket wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:35 pm The purpose of the '257 mux is to flip the respective target of a5 and "not a5" to enable/disable the bit manipulation of the word received by the second shifter.
But A5 is not valid when Shifter loads video memory.
So may be this result is normal.

Anyway I will craft some supplemental test picture for you to display.
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Re: Twin Shifter mod Prototype build results

Post by ijor »

sporniket wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 6:36 am edit2 : also, this test picture was crafted specifically to assess the flaw spotted by @ijor in the other discussion :
Btw, a discussion on Atari-Forum reminded of some other issue. Your datasheet shows 74HC245 chips. Are you actually using HC or HCT parts? Using HC chips is against the specs and not recommended. It might still work, but not a good idea ...
http://github.com/ijor/fx68k 68000 cycle exact FPGA core
FX CAST Cycle Accurate Atari ST core
http://pasti.fxatari.com
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mrbombermillzy
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Re: Twin Shifter mod Prototype build results

Post by mrbombermillzy »

sporniket wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 10:44 pm @mrbombermillzy thanks for the comparisons before/after.

As for the last picture, maybe you could check on your TT or an emulated STe that the picture is indeed saved with STe palette, I may have saved the wrong palette (STf instead of STe) with deluxe paint.

edit: also, you can also check the displayed palette on the color selector, you should see some shades instead of black.
Well, putting the picture through HATARI Ste emulation shows you had the correct palette saved (image colour levels artificially boosted for visibility):

boostdots.jpg
boostdots.jpg (84.2 KiB) Viewed 1827 times

EDIT: I know you already tested, but I just thought it would be good to post a picture! :D
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sporniket
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Re: Twin Shifter mod Prototype build results

Post by sporniket »

ijor wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 1:22 pm
sporniket wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 6:36 am edit2 : also, this test picture was crafted specifically to assess the flaw spotted by @ijor in the other discussion :
Btw, a discussion on Atari-Forum reminded of some other issue. Your datasheet shows 74HC245 chips. Are you actually using HC or HCT parts? Using HC chips is against the specs and not recommended. It might still work, but not a good idea ...
I am using HC parts, as instructed by the original description of the mod : https://github.com/sporniket/atari-st-m ... -colors.md

If you can point me to the reference that advises against this choice, I would be happy to read it and enlighten myself :)

@mrbombermillzy thanks for checking :)
ijor
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Re: Twin Shifter mod Prototype build results

Post by ijor »

sporniket wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 2:13 pm I am using HC parts, as instructed by the original description of the mod : https://github.com/sporniket/atari-st-m ... -colors.md
If you can point me to the reference that advises against this choice, I would be happy to read it and enlighten myself :)
Well, basically any electronic book or reference will advice against mixing CMOS and TTL parts. The voltage levels are not compatible. More specifically, it is usually ok to connect a CMOS output to a TTL input, but you should not connect a TTL output to a CMOS input. You can check the datasheets. That's precisely why there are HCT parts, that are CMOS chips but with TTL compatible voltage levels.

Now, this doesn't necessarily mean that it will not work at all. Chips (almost) never operate under the worst conditions. But again, you should use HCT parts, if not faster families, at the very least.
http://github.com/ijor/fx68k 68000 cycle exact FPGA core
FX CAST Cycle Accurate Atari ST core
http://pasti.fxatari.com
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stephen_usher
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Re: Twin Shifter mod Prototype build results

Post by stephen_usher »

HCT parts are also designed to sink enough current to survive with TTL chips. HC chips will be being strained, so even if they work for a bit they may die.
Intro retro computers since before they were retro...
ZX81->Spectrum->Memotech MTX->Sinclair QL->520STM->BBC Micro->TT030->PCs & Sun Workstations.
Added code to the MiNT kernel (still there the last time I checked) + put together MiNTOS.
Collection now with added Macs, Amigas, Suns and Acorns.
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